What we learned at combine
The annual NFL scouting combine, bigger and more formal than ever, is closing down with final workouts today. Player availability to media has ended. Bengals head coach Marvin Lewis said everything he has to say Friday.
A lot of NFL coverage this time of year involves the reading of tea leaves and connecting dots.
But here's what we know after five days in Indianapolis:
1. Bengals free agent defensive end Justin Smith is going to be a popular player when free agency opens Friday, with the 49ers and Browns reportedly the most recent teams to send signals that they are interested. Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, St. Louis and Minnesota are thought to be interested, too. Lewis said Smith, and Smith has agreed, to give the Bengals a chance to sign him. But efforts to reach a deal on a multi-year contract have not been successful over the past couple of years, and Smith will be very expensive. He has started 107 consecutive games and plays hard every down.
2. Speaking of Minnesota, the Vikings will aggressively pursue Bengals free agent safety Madieu Williams.
3. The draft is deep at defensive end, so if Smith does go, there are plenty of highly-regarded prospects available.
4. There also are a number of quality running backs, a class beefed-up by early-entry juniors, available should the Bengals be serious about spending another high-round pick on a ball carrier.
5. The decision to use their franchise tag to secure free agent offensive lineman Stacy Andrews was widely received as the right move by several Bengals assistant coaches. Andrews' reputation as a hard-worker and that his best years as a football player have yet to arrive are almost universally held inside the organization.
Here's what we think:
1. If I'm drafting for the Bengals, I draft the best defensive lineman available at No. 9 in the first round, tackle or end. And I stay on that side of the ball in Round 2.
2. The re-signings of unrestricted free agent wide receiver Antonio Chatman and restricted free agent defensive lineman Jonathan Fanene are solid moves. I'd like to see what both Chatman and Fanene could do with completely healthy seasons.
3. With a three-year deal, and what I hear is pretty good money, the Bengals are planning for Fanane to play. Now if 2006 third-round pick Frostee Rucker, another defensive end, could come to training camp healthy and ready to play. ...
4. Though linebacker Ahmad Brooks' rehab from groin surgery was shut-down for a couple of weeks -- he is expected to return this week -- his effort is a positive sign for Bengals fans. The light truly has gone on for Brooks. He understands the opportunity in place. He has the look of a stopper in the middle of the defense.
5. Commissioner Roger Goodell said a decision on linebacker Odell Thurman's application for reinstatement will be made before training camp. Goodell didn't necessarily say immediately right before camp in June or July. But the Bengals, and Thurman, would seem to deserve a decision before free agency gets too old and definitely before the draft. At the league meetings last March, Goodell said his new personal conduct policy and decisions about suspensions -- including those of Bengals wide receiver Chris Henry (eight games) and Tennessee cornerback Adam "Pacman" Jones (full season) would be made before the draft to allow teams to address potential needs. They were made in early April.
23 Comments:
Don't understand your reports of interest in drafting a running back. Have the Bengals lost all faith in Perry ever having a healthy season? Is Irons' recovery not progressing? With so many needs elsewhere on the roster, spending a high pick on an RB is not appealing. Also, what's the likelihood that they will bundle #9 with a supplemental pick to move up and get an Ellis, Dorsey, or Gholston?
Hi Mark--Nice info. I think there are a couple of questions here:
1) How bad will the Bengals' coaches look if J. Smith goes to Cleveland, S.F. or another 3-4 team when it appears we're switching to a 3-4 and is very successful? I mean, the guy wasn't exactly surrounded by great talent here, and don't you think if we lose all three guys to UFA that we're just eroding the base of decent players that we'd started building?
2) The last two years in the draft, we've missed out on Manny Lawson and Jarvis Moss in the draft. Now, I'm not saying those losses are bad, but to convert to the defense we need a franchise-type of player, and with Gholston and Long and Ellis and Dorsey there seem to be some fits for us higher in the draft. I think you should address a possible trade up, what with the compensatory picks and also that there are a bunch of 3-4 teams ahead of us (Dolphins, Pats, Jets). The Bengals philosophy has changed to not taking bargain guys because of character, but doesn't that also suggest that to get the guys we need we should put ourselves in a position to do so?
I very much argee with all of that.
Brooks and Odell could be all telling of our draft. I totally agree with the Idea of drafting defensive front 7 for the first two rounds (unless of course we happen to fall upon McFadden or Jake Long [not happening]). I sure like the idea of resigning Fanene but i really hope we dont rely on him. He may end up being a luxury but surely not a starter that you would be comfortable with. (ask carl powell)
This could actually be one of our better offseasons in many years. We just need to follow through in the draft and i still think (along with the rest of this city) we should sign a big free agent but if we dont i think we will still be fine. They are the experts with the money, not me. (although i am sure many of the other bloggers sware up and down that they have a better clue)
Mike from coffee mug.
You can't go into the draft and say they will take the best DE/DT at #9, that is the old bengal way of drafting... If they are not going to be aggressive and move up and go after the DT/DE they want, they will have to take the best athlete/football player at #9, except if its a QB, or trade down and get more picks... If a corner is the best athlete/football player at 9, take him, because like last year, the LB were killed with injuries and they had to find someone on the street to suit up...would rather strenghten the depth of a position than reach for a player because he plays a position of need...
Compensatory picks cannot be traded according to NFL rules.
Mark,
Any chance they take a look at the Vilma saga with the Jets?
To have Vilma, Brooks, and Thurman potentially could be a nice group of inside LB's.
Mark, after reading stuff on this site and on the bengals site it seems that they have thrown in the towel on Kenny Irons. I may not have been paying attention but he is our 2nd round pick and potentially a starter when he comes in to play. Is this possible that he will not play next year or are the bengals depending on him to pull a kijana carter? If you know, please let us know the state of Kenny Irons and the reason we are adressing a running back need in the draft (Kenny Watson, Kenny Irons, Rudi Johnson, Chris Perry, and DeDe Dorsey doesnt sound so bad)
I can't help but notice that everyone took note of what the giants did to win the superbowl. Did anyone else notice when they got rid of one of the better running backs in the legue (tiki barber) that a group of no names and #2's carried the rock succesfully through the season and opened the passing game. If healthy, none of our running backs are stars but we sure have pleanty of options that other teams wouldnt mind having in there back field. Just an observation.
Mike in bumber
How many drafts are we going to draft a RB? I know there is bad luck involved, but if we are that bad at drafting RB, then stop! We have backs here, even with Rudi gone (via trade, release, or injury) we need to give Watson more touches. Irons will be coming back, and we have other RB that need some touches. We waist picks on these types of situations, are we going to get someone who give us more than what Irons and Watson will give us....NO! Draft DL and OL and that we solve 80% of our problems. Maybe....Maybe you look at a TE in the later rounds, and maybe your last couple of picks you get a LB, but thats it. SOLVE THE LINE PROBLEMS THAT WE HAVE HAD FOR YEARS!!!! If it is not evident by now, that you can't win in the NFL if you don't control the line of scrimmage, than you don't know football......
Mark, I agree with your first round pick if the last name is Long, Ellis, or Dorsey. Seems like there is a chance that one of those guys could fall to #9. Adrian Peterson dropped to #7 last year, and Brady Quinn to #22...
Hopefully some offensive guys made some hay at the Combine so the plumb defensive guys aren't all off the board by the time the Bengals pick.
rudi is fine with watson as back-up... where the bengals screwed up is when they franchise justin smith instead of eric steinbach.. they learned their lesson this off-season when they franchised andrews... always one step behind this organization is....
Mark:
I noticed that Justin Smith has played his best game (statistically) of each of the past three seasons when the Bengals play Kansas City in KC. As it is his home it makes sense that he is especially charged up to look good but it also surprises me when I hear year after year about his non-stop motor. If that motor revs so much higher in one particular game each year maybe that reveals his non-stop motor is not performing at its capacity in the majority of other games. Non-stop is relative.
His tackles, sacks and QB hurries were better in KC than any other city over the past three years. I would bet against the odds that KC signs him as a free agent.
Allright first of all ANYONE that thinks that signing Bustin Smith again and bringing him back needs to be hit with a tack hammer and needs to never give anyone their opinion of football ever again. The guy is the biggest waste of space on the field he is SOOOOO overrated I feel for the team dumb enough to give the guy big money. The fact that the Bengals are even considering bringing him back next season to a long term deal is a slap in the face to all of us fans and especially the ticket holders who are helping to pay his overpriced contract. 2 SACKS IN A CONTRACT YEAR!!!! ARE YOU SERIOUS!!! This is what a top pick DE gives you and you consider signing him long term?!?!?! How do you end up being a GM or someone that makes football decisions for a team it must not take much if bringing a turd like Smith back is at the top of their priority list.
Now that I got that off my chest, if I were the Bengals and I were smart (which the Bengals front office has proven the past 20 so years they are not). I would draft the top D line prospect with the #9 pick preferably S.Ellis or Dorsey but if they're gone which I'm about 99% sure they will be, then I would draft Gholston who should still be there at 9. Then I would use the second rounder on either a good safety, a good TE, or a Good OLineman. Then Third get whatever you weren't able to get from the above mentioned positions in the 2nd and so on.
I wouldn't draft a LB since you have so many questions on your team. You have a lot of talented players at the position that could come back to help you, Jones, Marshall, Brooks, Pollack, Thurman, Jeanty, Henderson. All great mostly young LBers that can start on most any team in the NFL when healthy. So drafting one or signing one until you know the extent of injuries or whatever is crazy.
The same for RBs you got Dorsey, Watson, and Irons. Cut Perry and Rudi, or at least Rudi and let Perry play for cheap in 08 if he can stand on two legs long enough. I think Irons is going to be great let him mend his injury and make sure he's 100% and plug him into the starting role with Dorsey splitting carries and Watson handling 3rd down duties. This team has too much depth at RB and already invested a 2nd rd pick last season to go out and draft another one.
1) I agree with trading up to get the DT Cincy wants, rather than take whatever's available at #9. We've suffered through too many "best guy available" picks that don't pan out.
2) Without a DT who can get pressure up the middle, it makes no difference to have J. Smith or not. Notice that he got 9.5 sacks when Sam Adams was getting double teamed, and then got 2 sacks when Peko was getting beaten one-on-one.
As is the norm we all know how much Goldston would change up the D,Gathers would have someone else teams have to acct for but as is also the norm the Bengals will sit pat and watch he slip away!If he falls to 5 and we make no move it won't matter who we take we'll all get to watch him rack up 10+ sack seasons. The great Jake Long the concenses best tackle in the draft spent much of his time getting knocked on his behind playing against him, watch the OSU v MI gm and you'll see what I mean
The Bengals first have to decide if they are a 4-3 or 3-4 team. If they are a 4-3 let Smith go and move on. Draft a d-lineman that fits the system in round one. If Ellis, Dorsey, Gohlston and Long are gone in the first 8 picks, take the best o-linman available or look to move down. If those four are gone in the first 8, others will be interested in the possibilities left on the offensive side of the ball.
round one D-Line
round two O-Line
round three TE
supplamental DB
round four LB or d-line
Round five o-line
Round six DL or LB
round seven OL
Quit taking quarterbacks in the draft that will never start a game for you. Those are wasted picks. There 100 guys that are FA's that could be your number three. The guy you have in that position should be the kind of guy that is a future coach (brains). He can do more to help the starter and the team that way than he can with his talent.
Do not draft a running back in the top four rounds. You already have a starter, a first round pick, a second round pick, the guy that your QB loves (Watson) and the guy that the fans love (Dorsey). The Denver approach is still the way to go. NFL RB's are a dime a dozen. Unless you have L.T., it don't matter who you put back there. If you can block up front, give a guy the ball 20+ times a game and he will get you 100 yards. Thats 1600 on the year, something no Bengal has ever come close too. If you can't block up front and you don't have L.T. then you can't run the ball effectively enough to win. Draft linemaen.
None of the Bengals most successful RB's have been first rounders. Do not ever consider a RB in the first round ever again.
1. Letting Justin Smith go probably isn't a bad move. He is a good DE, but not a great one. And overpaying a good player that will be 30 heading into this season would be a mistake. The mistake might not be this year, but it would be down the road.
2.I like Madieu Williams, but he is another one we can't afford to overpay. Ndukwe and White look like a couple young guys that are ready to step up and play. So sign Madieu if the price is right, otherwise walk.
3. The draft is very deep at DE. I am glad to see the scouts oggeling over Chris Long, because I think that Gholston is the real prize of the DEs. But even if Gholston isn't around, the Bengals can pick up another decent DE in the second round and take a look at Kenny Phillips in the first (that is if we don't sign Madieu).
4. I hope they don't waste another high pick on a running back. Rudi should be healthly and when he isn't Watson is fine. Plus, you might have Irons or Perry recover. Even though the Bngals need a better running game, they don't need another RB. I'd rather see that 1-3 round pick used on another OL than a RB.
5. Tagging Anrews was the right move. Too bad they didn't tag Steinbach last year. But to make it worth the while, they need to sign Andrews to a long term contract. Good football teams have good trenches. I rarely have a problem with teams going out and signing good linemen.
Goodell will reinstate Thurman, no doubt about it. If he doesn't, I would have to think that Michael Vick will never play another down and that Pacman Jones can hang it up and retire.
"J. Smith or not. Notice that he got 9.5 sacks when Sam Adams was getting double teamed,and then got 2 sacks when Peko was getting beaten one-on-one."
Smith had 7.5 sacks that season.
Smith would get more sacks if he could beat his man one on one. It would also help if Smith did more than bullrush all the time.
Round 1 D-line
Round 2 Front 7 or O-line
Round 3 Center (remember rich
braham)
Round 4 TE
Round 5 DB
Round 6 OLB
Round 7 WR
I know we have a few other picks but in my opinion those are the prioritys. Screw the whole "figure out between 3-4 or 4-3," figure it out after free agency and draft. You build your defense around the best players you have. I wouldnt pass on a player because he is a 4-3 guy but we are doing 3-4. Pick the best guy available.
Mike from bumbles bounce!
I think it is funny when people post what position the Bengals should take in each round. Lets see....
Round 1 - All Pro DT
Round 2 - All Pro LB
Round 3 - All Pro TE
Supplamental - All Pro OT
Round 4 - All Pro C
Round 5 - All Pro WR
Round 6 - All Pro DE
round 7 - Special Teams specialist
Clearly, we have no idea who will be left on the board. So posting these types of draft is just ridiculous. I thought I would have to say that mine is the best since it includes so many quality players.
4-3
Run stuffing tackles, 310 plus, have to have at least four on the roster. You would like to have a least one that requires a constant double team, which allows the end to that side a one on one.
Ends play on the edge most of the time. At least one end should be a rush guy that can beat you up the field right now. Ends are the primary pass rush threat in this D (something the Bengals have been very poor at).
Linebackers - Middle guy must be a downhill player who can take on the fullback and stuff the run at the line of scrimmage, forcing the RB to stop his feet or change his course of direction. He is responsible for all runs in the A and B gaps. OLB's have to support the run on the front side, looking for the outside cut from an inside run, stuff a C gap run, and pursue to the outside run. On the backside the OLB must must fold and wait for the the cutback or reverse type plays (something the Bengals have been very poor at). LB's have coverage responsibilities in the pass or stunt to bring extra pressure (something the Bengals have been very poor at).
3-4
Noseman - Absolute run stuffer! 325lb plus. This guy must never loose ground. He plays head up on the center or shades to the strength of the O. He has to stuff both A gaps. If your noseman requires constant double teams, you should be able to stop the run, that is his goal, get double teamed and still not loose ground. This is a brutal task and you better have more than one of them on your roster(the Bengals have nobody on the roster that fits this mold).
Ends line up head up to outside eye of the offensive tackle. They are generaly two gap players in run situations, responsible for the B and C gaps. There primary resposibility is to; a) stuff the run, and B keep blockers off of LBs. They are rushers in the pass but most often have pass rush lanes that they must stay in. They are not often asked to be edge rushers who beat you up field off of the snap, though they will move out to the edge in a pure passing situation (Justin Smith is a textbook 3-4 end)
ILB's are run stuffers. On the front side the backer must stop the run from the center to the C gap the backside ILB must supprot that run and puonce when the RB stops his feet or cuts(Brooks, Thurman, and Johnson all fit the bill). The frontside OLB has outside runs and folds behind the line to support inside runs from the outside in. The backside OLB has cutback and reverse.
OLB's are often involved in the pass rush, usually having one that is a dominant edge rusher (The Bengals have Geathers and Henderson to fit that bill).
There are huge differences in the type of personnel that one would want for each of the two different deffenses. The Bengals, like every other team, MUST decide now before free agency and the draft what defense they will use so that they can sign/ draft the opropriate personnel. For example, Smith is an average end in our current D, but a valued commodity for teams running a 3-4. The Bengals would be wise to sign him if they intend to change, and just as wise to let him go if they intend to remain in a 4-3.
The Bengals current personnel may well be better suited for a change to the 3-4, though a true noseman is an absolute must. Peko could be used as a backup but he will have to get bigger.
I want a defensive player in the first round. But, there is a lot talk about McFadden dropping out of the top five. I was wondering what the Bengals do if he does a Matt Leinert or Brady Quinn and does some kind of mega-drop. Do we take him at number 9 if his there? I would think we would have to considering how good he is...
"Smith will be very expensive. He has started 107 consecutive games and plays hard every down."
He's playing something, and it's not football in all them games.
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