Bengals: Coaching comparison

Monday, December 31, 2007

Coaching comparison

Ravens coach Brian Billick was fired this afternoon after a 5-11 season.

In nine years, Billick had an 80-64 regular-season record, went to the playoffs four times and won a Super Bowl.

Meanwhile, in five seasons with the Bengals, Marvin Lewis is 42-38 in the regular season with only one playoff appearance, a wildcard loss.

This example is how standards might not be as high for a coach with the Bengals as they are elsewhere throughout the NFL.

32 Comments:

at 12/31/2007 2:30 PM

Anonymous said...

The Bengals, regrettably, only have one standard, did the Brown family pocket enough money? Had the Bengals been 8 and 8 this year, Mike Brown would be content. Why fire Marvin Lewis? Is anybody else going to do any better as long as Mike Brown is around? Like the Reds, the Bengals are a solid .500 franchise.

at 12/31/2007 2:35 PM

Anonymous said...

Ok, Mark. You dig up the bones of Shula, Coslet, and LeBeau, combine all of their seasons and compare them percentage wise to Marvin. Now wonder Marvin doesn't answer your questions: Online you sound kind of dense. I doubt that is the truth, but sometimes you do.

Obviously it was more than W/L's with Billick.

Marvin brought the Bengals back to the NFL a place they hadn't been since 1990 before he strolled into town. There is nothing valid in your comparison.

at 12/31/2007 2:43 PM

Anonymous said...

Mark for comparrison sake what was Billick's record the last 5 years?

Robert Young
Milford

at 12/31/2007 2:49 PM

Anonymous said...

Or it's a sign of how organizations can make snap decisions just to appease the malcontents of their fan base. Why does everything have to be spun in a negative light towards the Bengals. Billick was a good coach who won 13 games just last year. Not the coach's fault that they struggles at the QB position all year. It's a bad decision by the Ravens.

at 12/31/2007 3:09 PM

Anonymous said...

Agree with who dey time. Billick is a good coach that had a lot of success. I don't think it is by chance a team like the steelers have head coaches stay for long periods of time and continually have success. Marvin must be enabled to make the changes he feels is neccessary and have support from ownership. It's not like his team just gave up on him this year. The players still played hard for him they just weren't good enough. I continue to be patient because I believe Marvin will shed the dead weight and have us back on top here shortly. And if Billick needs a job bring him here we could use a few more winners around here.

at 12/31/2007 3:14 PM

Anonymous said...

Hey Who Dey, Since you think Billick is a good coach, then they should fire Marvin and hire him. at least he has a superbowl ring to his credit vs. no playoffs in 5 years for Marvin

at 12/31/2007 3:30 PM

Anonymous said...

Ozzie Newsome should be canned giving up all of those draft picks for a running back, especially on an aging team, that was ridiculous.

And Mark, while I agree with you somewhat, quit being petty and back biting, just because Marv gave that story to the Columbus Dispatch, at least it was as you say to independent media.

at 12/31/2007 3:43 PM

Anonymous said...

Did you forget what it was like to be a bengals fan before Marvin got to Cincinnati? Marvin is a good coach and he took a job that many would not have taken. Expectations were high for this season and the team played poorly together. Anyone who is calling for the Bengals to fire Marvin is off their rocker. He will make this team a winner again next year.

at 12/31/2007 3:45 PM

Anonymous said...

The 2 situations don't compare, really. I live in PA, but I'm only 1 hr north of Baltimore. I get lots of Ravens news on TV and news-paper. There were rumblings many weeks ago BB had 'lost' the locker room. He was openly criticized by his players in the press, most notably Ray Lewis, who pals around w/ the owner. It became a sorry situation.

at 12/31/2007 3:53 PM

Brian Butts said...

Billick was one game better over the last 5 years at 43-37.

Pretty similar, but then look what Marvin started with when he got here.

at 12/31/2007 4:29 PM

Anonymous said...

Mark,
Here is an idea, why don't you call it -30-. You have become nothing but a bitter jerk this entire season. True, the Bengals have had a very disappointing season, but you spin everything so horribly, that it is a joke. Give it up Mark! does it make you feel better about your miserable life to bring everything and everyone down to your pitiful level?

at 12/31/2007 4:39 PM

Anonymous said...

Dear Miami,
Here is your chance to get a great head coach. His name is Brian Billick. If you decide to pickup "BB", the Ravens will throw in Ray Lewis. Yes Ray made be broken up, and alittle slower, but makes a great crowd chearleader. Sorry Ray, but its time for you to become a BIG "D" coach.

at 12/31/2007 5:20 PM

Frank Robinson's Ghost said...

There is no way the Bengals should fire Marvin. To the extent that the numbers have any validity --

The five year comparison, in light of what Marvin started with -- would tend to show that Marvin has done a better job _on average_ than did Billick. Of course, that comparison is far too simple. It has everything to do with expectations.

Cincinnati's (the team's) expectations are still much too low. How could they not be. If Mike Brown truly expected or demanded a winning organization, he would have made radical changes many years ago.

Instead, it took 15 years of absolute misery before he would even hire a competent coach from outside and make modest changes in spending and scouting. Nope. This is the Brown family business. He would sure LIKE to win, but they won't stop running it -- no matter how poorly.

P.S. Agreed that your post is rather snippy -- but I think it is deserved, given the arrogant and dismissive presentation Coach Lewis gives the local media (for whatever reasons).

at 12/31/2007 5:57 PM

Anonymous said...

Mark,

We can tell by the tone of your writing that you do not like Marvin Lewis and its obvious that Marvin doesn't like the local writers so it would be nice if you could compare facts with facts and quit whinning. I can barely stand to read your acticles in the paper.

Billick has been one game better than Marvin but Billick had a contender when he took over. I know Marvin can be an A** but he deserves another chance. I would like to see changes at the coordinator positions because things have become stale.

Dan

at 12/31/2007 7:04 PM

Anonymous said...

The first comment summed it up best. Mikey is laughing all the way to the bank! Why would you think he would care what this team does as far as wins and losses. As long as he has sellouts he's in heaven. Mikeys perfect season is to go 8-8. Tell me one owner who ever uttered the words that the playoffs cost him more money! Civic pride, please. Go ahead and reward your coaches with new contracts, it wasn't their fault the team under achieved. Give new contracts to other under achieving players. Let Steinbach go but keep Levi(offsides,beat like a drum) Jones. Willie is on the backside of his career, but lets give him the money because he has been here since we sucked. Can't blame Mikey for that, that was Marvin taking care of his boys. God bless you fans who pay to see this team. At least when Wacko was in town he gave you something to laugh about(other than the team) Happy New Year! P.s The new ticket increase will come next week.

at 12/31/2007 7:40 PM

Anonymous said...

The only thing wrong with your analysis is the word "MIGHT".

The Bengals have one standard, which is for the Brown family nepotism machine to make money.

I'd venture to say that Mike Brown is the most hated man in the city. Easily.

at 12/31/2007 7:47 PM

Anonymous said...

Marvin Lewis will never win a playoff game coaching the Bengals.

at 12/31/2007 11:50 PM

Anonymous said...

Mark has every right to be "snippy" if he wants. Marvin is making his own bed by being so dismissive to the media. When he has as many rings as Belichick or Parcells he can act coy. whodey's comment about QB issues is ridiculous, the Ravens have had QB issues his entire tenure. The Ravens never had an offense rank in the top 10 in his 9 years.

The fact is Billick "lost" his locker room and so has Marvin. Granted this is due in part to the egos of the players, but managing the personalities of NFL players is one of the challenges of being a NFL coach and obviously Marvin has struggled with this. Name me one coach who has turned around a back-biting locker room into a winning team. Sometimes losses have to be cut when too much damage has been done. That is the case with Marvin and Billick.

at 1/01/2008 3:00 AM

Anonymous said...

This is so sad. I'm disappointed, not in the Bengals lackluster season, but in just how petty the Enquirer sports writers have been this year.
You alienate Chad and shun Marvin. Do you want to work for the Enquirer or would you rather relocate to another city?
We root for the Bengals win or lose. If you can't put your biased away and put on your journalistic integrity slanted hat, then just report the facts and move on. We don't want to hear your bellyaching any longer.
No wonder Marvin doesn't like giving interviews to you guys.

at 1/01/2008 6:00 AM

JerBear said...

First off, "speak the truth"...you sounds like an angry person.

I think you have to question some of the moves Marvin Lewis has made.

Letting Steinbach go, keeping old veterans in Anderson and Jones.

Letting seemingly good guys and decent players in Kasvaharn and Brian Simmons go, holding on to Chris Henry, Ahmad Brooks, and probably giving Odell Thurman another choice.

Marvin has made some bad personnel moves. I don't really think he should be fired yet, but Carson's Palmers comments yesterday are pretty condemning of either Lewis or the assistant coaches.

There's obvious a lack of discipline at times on this team.

at 1/01/2008 8:49 AM

Anonymous said...

...people, scratching in the kitty litter a bit, aren't we?

at 1/01/2008 1:50 PM

Anonymous said...

Obviously, the people here who think that Marvin is some coaching genius and all is well with the Bengals have not been paying attention. In five years despite having one of the three best quarterbacks in the game, a WR who led in yardage for 4 straight years, two quality tackles,and a 1400 yard RB has had ONE winning season. At the same time, EVERY defensive free agent has been a total bust or non-entity. His drafting record (and the Bengals allow the coaches to choose) have been disastrous as there have been one high draft bust after another (see Chris Perry, Kelly Washington, Keiwan Ratliff, Frostee Rucker, Odell Thurman, Mathias Askew, Caleb Miller, and, yes, Madeiu Williams -- and that is just the 1-4 rounds). His defense has been in the bottom of the league each and every year. Other than Palmer, all of the stars on the team he inherited. The team he assembled lost to 4-12 KC, 5-11 SF, 7-9 Buffalo, 8-8 Arizona and were consistently outcoached as evidenced by their being consistently stoned after half time. Yet, he refuses to take any responsibility for the lack of success the team he picked has had or for the mistakes that were made. So other than a team like the Bengals, what team would keep such a coach? Or most of his assistants? The Cowboys are about to fire a coach who led them to 13 wins because they think someone they have may be better. That says it all about the Cowboys' desire to win and the Bengals.

What Marvin Lewis is is a good coordinator, nice man, but lousy head coach. He is Doug Collins and the Bengals need Phil Jackson.

at 1/01/2008 2:19 PM

Anonymous said...

This is a good chance to pick up Rex Ryan as defensive coordinator. Chuck Bresnahan has clearly shown that he cannot coach a defense to the level needed for a playoff/super bowl contender.

at 1/01/2008 2:49 PM

Mr. Redlegs said...

Wow, as someone who covers the NFL for a national publication I'm fairly floored by some of the comments here this week.

For one, Brian Billick lost his team two years ago. If not for taking over playcalling last year and going 13-3, you would have enjoyed his smug arrogance this season on a pre-game TV show near you.

Famous Billick quote that bit him in the ass: "Trust me, Baltimore, I know quarterbacks."

Scott Mitchell, Tony Banks, Stoney Case, Derek Anderson (dispatched), Kyle Boller, etc, etc.

Ozzie Newsome, hands down one of the best NFL GMs and a master talent evaluator, did a team-wide survey and found an overwhelming majority believed major change was needed on the coaching staff. In other words, the players had tuned out. They were asking for help.

They got it.

Now, parallel what Palmer said about the Bengals needing coaching changes. And Lewis--pompous, stoic, prickly, limited--standing up in defiance of what his team captain is saying.

Should Lewis be fired? No.

But the Bengals lack so poorly in elements of game preparation, game-plan flexibility, offensive spontaneity and halftime adjustments. It's also a team with lots of spotty talent.

It's also a team quickly missing its window unless some of the dramatic changes Palmer is citing are made this offseason.

Zampese becomes offensive coordinator; Rex Ryan the new defensive coordinator (if he doesn't get the Ravens head job) and perhaps a GM such as assistant GM Kevin Abrams of the Giants is placed above Marvin.

Look at the Bengals' 2008 schedule. The current team and coaching staff are looking at 5-11.

Will you be crying for Marvin's head a year from now?

at 1/01/2008 2:57 PM

Mr. Redlegs said...

And what's wrong with what Curnutte said here? It's the truth!

Lewis likely would not have survived most places after this sort of annual mediocrity and luckless drafting for five years.

But in Cincinnati, where the Reds get roasted over every minute roster move, the Bengals somehow get a pass because being slightly above average is accepted with open arms and (season-ticket) wallets.

Why?

It isn't the messenger's fault.

at 1/01/2008 3:58 PM

Anonymous said...

Read Chgolaw said...
I couldn't have said it better. Right on the money! May I add that after Kelly Washington was drafted, 3 picks later Lance Briggs then Jason Witten were taken. Great scouting on the Bengals part.

at 1/01/2008 5:51 PM

sabo said...

Mark, thanks for writing what you feel like you should, not what will make every Bengal fan happy.

The Bengals need a GM. Badly. Marvin needs help. He shouldn't be in charge of player personnel. Certainly, he should be able to give input, but not the final word. Someone other than Marvin should run the draft. Someone other than Marvin should be the one who decides a player should be let go, or resigned instead of someone else...
Willie shouldn't have to decide to harbor any resentment over the business aspect of football against the guy in charge of on field performance.
The head coach should only have to worry about the guys on his own roster. Not about free-agents or draft choices.

Certainly their are some instances where a coach earns this right, and suceeds, but Marvin hadn't earned it before he came here, and that hasn't changed. It is on the Brown family to make this a better franchise. That should make every Bengal fan shudder with horror and resentment.

at 1/01/2008 6:47 PM

wiseking said...

Valid points Mr Redlegs. As I've mentioned on the subsequent post by Mark Curnutte, Marvin Lewis fears most that Mike Brown would have the foresight to stick a GM in on top of him. It won't happen because it doesn't need to happen (at least in the owner's mind).

Lewis has lost the dressing room so now he wants to have the GM role. Ryan then gets the head coach job.

From reading this board all season, Lewis has outstayed his welcome and there's no future in it for him especially given that 5-11 likelihood next season.

at 1/01/2008 7:26 PM

Anonymous said...

Mikey doesn't care one bit about on field performance. If he did, we wouldn't be saying one winning season in 17 years. Say that again: 1 in 17! Hello?

It's always Groundhog Day in Bengal-dom. Nepotism and feckless traits are replete in our Front Office. More of the same: guaranteed! If you say differently, you're a fool who gladly lines his pockets.

at 1/02/2008 2:56 PM

Anonymous said...

mark and many in the media are just the lastest and greatest examples of a Conservitive, Midwestern, small town media who cant handle a well educated black man who doesn't play the "huckleberry role" for the media and fans. once again, cincinnati is showing why so many premeier athletes and celebs decide to leave this city. i can only hope Marvin gets the job in baltimore. Talk about a switch in "Cultures" and "media". david steele would NEVER write the crap Mark and others in the media try to pull on marvin lewis........and i cant wait to see what the "media" has in store for Dusty baker...........god help dusty......baseball fans are alot different and more conservitive than football fans

at 1/02/2008 3:00 PM

Anonymous said...

what do you people want Marvin Lewis to do......dance a JIG for you. Slap high fives with the media/ Kiss the media's butt? let the geeks on sports talk radio start stupid rumors without having the ability to respond? Oh i get it, you all want marvin to take whatever you hacks give him without marvin responding. Tuogh luck suckers, marvin lewis is a Man. (a real man)

at 1/09/2008 3:23 AM

Anonymous said...

im not sure what the record is when marvin's bengals faced the billick's ravens, but i think marvin has had the better hand.
its funny cause we ravens fans have long been dissappointed with billick. year after year our offense stinks. worse yet, we're not sure if billick was aware of the o's ineptitude.
personally, i think if we had ml as hc, or almost anybody else for that matter, the ravens would have been more successful than billick. billick just wasted the ravens d with dumb play calling every year. furthermore, 13-3 could have easily been 9-7 if it werent for some luck in the last minute.

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Monday, December 31, 2007

Coaching comparison

32 Comments: