Roster analysis: Defensive line
Sixth in a series
Today: Defensive line
Starters: DLE Robert Geathers, DRE Justin Smith, DT John Thornton, NT Domata Peko
Backups: E-T Bryan Robinson, E Jonathan Fanene, T Michael Myers, E Frostee Rucker.
Major changes are expected on the Cincinnati defensive line.
Smith and Robinson are unrestricted free agents. Robinson is unlikely to return, though he has proven to be a valuable swingman and sometimes starter. Smith is the big question mark. He had just two sacks in 2007, when he was paid an $8.644 million tender as the franchise player. Though he plays hard on every down, Smith needs to provide more pass rush. A problem could be the lack of overall talent around him.
Peko is a rising star in the middle. Rucker, a third-round pick in 2006, hasn't been healthy or prepared enough to get on the field consistently. Thornton is a smart player and a leader in the locker room, but he is one of the smallest tackles in the NFL. The Bengals had to move Geathers to strong-side linebacker at midseason because of injuries to the linebacker corps, a move that prevented him from getting close to the 10.5 sacks he had in 2006.
There is serious talk of a switch to a three-lineman base defense, the 3-4. One potential alignment could be Thornton and Rucker at ends with Peko as the nose tackle. Geathers would move to outside linebacker, where he could play the run and rush the passer.
No Bengals fan or observer would be surprised if the first-round draft pick in April is a defensive end.
Question: If you are the Bengals, do you switch from a four-lineman base defense to one with three linemen and four linebackers? Why? Why not?
posted by Mark at 11:08 AM
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Post a Comment*Mark: How does Davey Pollock fit into that situation? I know you reported he is considering a comeback, but what, if any, affect will his choice make?
A switch to the 3-4 makes Justin Smith expendable. He's said often that he hates the 3-4, which likely means he knows he wouldn't be a productive player in that scheme.
If they do switch to a 3-4 they should draft Ellis and put him at end. Thorton? He had a good year, but if anything, he should be a rotational player. In 2009, say goodbye to John.
Why switch to a 3-4? All you have to do is ask your self which unit is our strongest in the front 7. With Odell's return seeming more likely, and a healthy Ahmad, it's my opinion that the linebackers take that title. So wouldn't the 3-4 seem logical?
Just my uninformed opinion.
If Rucker is usually hurt or unprepared and Thornton is small, usingthem as the starting ends in a 3-4 line-up spells disaster
What a dilemma! We struggled to find linebackers last year and are now considering a switch to a 3-4, which tells you how little they think of their linemen.
They must feel good about getting Thurman back. Risky proposition.
3-4 or 4-3...as long as Justin Smith's "motor" isn't a part of it.
Stay with the 4-3.
First of all, Domata Peko is one of the better young tackles in the AFC. No one knows for certain that he can play nose tackle. Go with the known quantity - leave him where he's at.
Second, the Bengals have staked their future to Ahmad Brooks. Setting him back to day one in his learning curve is a step in the wrong direction.
Third, Robert Geathers needs to left right where he's at. The notion of him playing OLB is great except that he'd get killed in coverage.
The Bengals line play against the run has been OK. What they lacked was outside pass rush. Don't set these kids back a year or two. Tweak what's already in place with a legitimate pass rusher to go along with Geathers and the Bengals will be OK.
I would stay with a 4-3. Moving Geathers out of his natural Left DE position does not fix this defense. I think the problem with the D-line is a lack of talent, not a lack of tactics. Plus there is a learning curve associated with a change in allignment. Smith has to go, a right DE can't get 2 sacks as your primary rush end. I would suggest drafting Vernon Gholston in the first round. If instead the Bengals draft Sedrick Ellis it may suggest they are switching to a 3-4. I think they also need a 4th DT to play in the rotation with Peko, Thornton and Myers. I think someone who can get to the QB would do more to transform the defense than getting a guy to plug the middle.
I think we should stay a 4-3 defense, because that's what we are used to. Let's just add some pieces in FA, and the draft.
"Question: If you are the Bengals, do you switch from a four-lineman base defense to one with three linemen and four linebackers? Why? Why not?"
If they move to the 3-4 with the current players then the front 3 should be Rucker, Peko and Fanene.
Geathers could be a good pass rushing linebacker in the 3-4, but if they stick to the 4-3 he should stay at DE.
Also do they have enough healthy linebackers to play the 3-4? Moving to the 3-4 would also mean some linebackers would have to gain weight or be replaced.
I'd make the switch to a 3-4, especially if Odell comes back and keeps it together. It's said linebackers are a lot easier to find than impact linemen, and I like the linebacker corp of Thurman, Brooks, Dhani Jones Landon Johnson, et al. Thurman has the speed and athleticism to drop back and cover the middle seem (tight end) in the two-deep zone, and Geathers has proved he can drop back in the flat. I think Peko can occupy two blockers in the middle, and you won't need so many sacks out of the ends. It'll be easier to fill draft needs in a 3-4 rather than a 4-3. They might be able to draft one impact DL, but not two. Use the second pick on a linebacker or cornerback.
ajaxonford
You play the defense that is best suited to the talent you have. If you still can't get it done, then you need better players. With all the injuries and suspensions, who knows how good they could have been.
Let's see. Who in the NFL plays the 3-4? Hmmm. There's Pittsburgh, Baltimore and, oh yeah, New England. All top defenses.
Maybe Bill Belicheat knows something. Could it be that the 3-4 is a superior defense?
Since I'm an optimist and think both Odell and Pollack will be back, a linebacker group of Brooks and Thurman inside with Geathers and either Pollack or Jeanty on the outside looks pretty good to me.
I see the real need at nose tackle with Peko more of an outside tackle in the 3 tackle front along with Fanene, Rucker and Thornton.
Sorry Justin. I've been one of your biggest supporters but you just don't fit into a 3-4.
No doubt the Bengals would need two of their four first day picks to go to the D-line but it would work.
To be honest, it doesn't matter what they do. 4-3 or 3-4. The question will be still, can the defensive line be effective and thats a no. We are too thin at that position. Peko will be in-effective at the nose position. He struggles enough in the 4-3, trying to get a push on the offensive line. Our linebacker positions looks bright with all the linebackers being healthy for next season and it looks good that odell has a shot to come back from suspension and compete for a roster spot. Even Pollack has a chance to come back and be a situational(?) player. The question will be the front line.Thats what looks grim.
feelgoodjoker
NO! We have asked the LB to do way to much for years. Our problem has not been our alignment, it is the lack of players to compete. We need 4 guys up front, it just needs to be different guys. In most of the 3-4 defenses, 1-2 LB are lining up on the line about 75% of the time anyway. We need to bite the bullet and actually fix the problem, and that is getting some DT and DE in here. Geathers at DE is fine, if he has guys around him, he will produce. Peko let down a little this last year, but again I think he is o.k with others around him. Thorton would be a good sub in/out guy, but not the starter. Smith is gone, to much money for to little results, and is not fast enough. SIGN HAYNESWORTH OR ALLEN to fill the other DT spot. Draft a first round DE like Gholston. The next 2 picks should be on DT and DT/DE, this will shore up our Defense. THE BENGALS LB CORP ARE TOP 5, if these moves are made. Thurman will be back, Pollack maybe (bonus if he is), with Jeanty, Jones, Brooks, Henderson, Johnson, we are fine. As long as they don't have to tackle on every running play, and cover 2 guys for 6 seconds on every play, they will be top notch.
firefly: I strongly disagree with your top 5 LB corp assertion. You are overly optimistic here to say the least. And DL is in same situations as LB. What, ODell comes in and makes an immediate impact? Dude hasn't played in 2 years. Pollock, I wish the best for him, but realistically... Brooks and Jeanty only starters under contract, but Brooks and Jeanty hardly play. All others are FA's, Landon only one worth keeping. None are game changers worth building around. DL has Geathers, Peko, Fanene, all others are past prime and not worth keeping no matter how good locker room guys they are.
Both 4-3 and 3-4 schemes will require these position groups to turnover together. These 2 poistions get a lot of attention. This D probably continues to struglle for another season or two, despite decent coaching changes.
Frostee needs to man up, or Marvin needs to and cut his rear end.
Welcome Fitz and 3-4
Bye Bye overpaid Justin, John, Bryan, Frostee "who" Rucker...
Honestly i think you have to go to the 3-4. With Thurman, Ahmad in the middle and landon and geathers on the edge, that makes a decent group. Our D line is absolutely horrible...they have been for years. Lets try to make a change and hope for something different.
To those who say bye to Justin Smith (bad move). He would goto Pittsburgh or Cleveland and wreak havoc on us (especially) and everyone else. He needs help, not to mention his one of the tough guys on the Benglas. They let Steinbach go last year (Pro Bowl; most versatile lineman; could have been are center), i hope they don't make the same mistake again. They had to rebuild Special teams from scratch last year. Which contributed to are bad start by not resigning key players. This year if they don't resign 4 defensive starters they will be starting over from Scratch. They were down to 1 linebacker last year, how are they going to field 4. Their strength is their Defensive line, they don't have any difference maker linebakers. Re-sign them all and let them battle it out in training camp. They need and impact defensive tackle...Add a Albert Hayesworth (probally franchise tagged) type to the interior of the Bengals line and they would be awesome...Go Bengals!!!
Chris in Mt. Healthy: You failed to look at what I was saying. You are grading the LB on what they have done, and that really isn't fair, because they have never been able to be LB's. They are always asked to be Linemen and Backfield too, that is a load that no NFL LB can live up to. Secondly, Thurman comes back and is a big impact player, you can count on it. He has stayed in shape, kept up on football skills, and was born with skills that are natural. As far as the only ones under contract, that is why you sign FA, Johnson should be kept, and you failed to mention Dhani Jones being a contributor on this team. He arguably was the best all around player on the team, and must be kept. The D-Line does need help, and retooled, both from FA and the Draft, and if we could put a top 12 line (realistic hopes) out there, the LB would show how good they really are. This team does have a lot of problems, but the backers aren't one of them. What game, or play, or stretch of games have you looked at and can point to that the LB were horrible or cost us the game?
firefly118 is dead on.
Those who want to switch to a 3-4 obviously weren't around in the nineties watching that disaster.
It boils down to personnel, keep the scheme intact, get better players.
Justin Smith, gone. Good guy, I'm glad he's set for life now.
A top notch FA run stopping DE/NT via free agency is the only thing that will put my butt back into a PB stadium seat this year. We need a Reggie White/Green Bay type signing to come in and establish the new "tough guy" mold of this unit. Haynsworth, baggage and all, could be that guy.
Of course, we will likely never seen AH here, as ownership now only wants nice guys/good citizens and continue to rank 25th in D. Prove me wrong Mike Brown and show us you want to win and NOW.
"To those who say bye to Justin Smith (bad move). He would goto Pittsburgh or Cleveland and wreak havoc on us (especially) and everyone else."
Smith doesn't want to play in a 3-4 defense and both those teams use a 3-4 defense.
First of all the Bengals are crazy if they think that keeping J. Smith is a good move. Having a "good motor" is good only if it yeilds good result! He is limited in his pass-rush moves, he's just not a big threat. It is either bad coaching techniques or limitations.
D. Peko is nice but he is no NT. He is not stout enough nor does he command double teaming, a need for a NT. Thorton is a good guy and would probably be more suited to come off the bench in special situations, for the right price.
Surprisingly, the LB's have a good opportunity to shine. That is if everybody can come back healthy and ready to play hard in either Defensive setting {4-3 or 3-4}.
Good coaching should be the determining factor. If you don't believe me look at all the regularly winning teams. The common denominator is good drafting and good coaching. Good coaching can overcome injuries and attitudes even with non-starters. Look at the Colts, Jaguars, Steelers, Seahawks, Cowboys and Patriots.
remember the WEBB defense?
stay with the 4 - 3.
Coaching is a big part of it and they have a new defensive coordinator. Justin had 80 tackles last year and is good against the run. Geather's (4) and Smith's (2) sack totals were down from previous year. Previous year 7.5 for Smith and 10.5 for Geather's. Dhani Jone's was a great pickup, they need to resign him too.
Bengals are way too light and not talented enough along the front 7 to switch to a 3-4. First off, to run a 3-4, you have to have a run stuffing, space eating NT and who on this roster can fill that??? Second, your DE's, need to be the size of DT's with more agility. All our DT's and DE's are either to light or not agile enough to play the 3-4 DE. Next, with only three down DL, and we've seen what these guys have done in the 4-3, how are they gonna keep blockers off our undersized LB's???? True our LB's our probably our most talented position on D, but with the current DL on this roster, switching to a 3-4 will negate the LB's talent.
Haynesworth? Really? Doesn't anybody realize that he didn't have a big season until he was looking to get paid? Haynesworth will be an overpaid bust for somebody, I just hope it's not here.
Sounds like a great move, if you have a good NT. The 3-4 doesnt work without one, no matter how many linebackers you have. Unfortunately, the Bengals don't have a 3-4 NT. Peko and Thorton are better suited for the 4-3 as DT's and I don't think they have anybody else on the roster who can play it.
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